Melee VS Archer

I've done some thinking, and some talking with my fellow Archers.
I've seen people complain (low level people I might add) that Archers are to overpowerd. In fact it's quite the opposit...

Thanks to a Melee Duel Wielders Double Attack, Overcrit, and the other level 20 plus skills fighters can do the same damage per hit as I can, and in fact attack about 2-3 times faster then me.

I know this sounds as whining but really, going into a fight with a Melee user and we both has matching exp and gear I loose (Not to mention loosing VS Zengas char, but I have to hand it to him after building that many chars I'd be suprised if he didn't know how to build a good char so I can accept loosing to the guy spending 5 times as much time in the game as I do)

Something I've also noticed is that at the lower levels the bows increased in Damaga at a nice steady pace, but after the 48 bow and Arrow It's barly no increase at all... The DPS of the 67 bow is close to the 48 one, and the damage on the 67 arrow is 10 + to the 58... Not much... While Melee users weapons gets a HUGE boost around the same levels, the super fast 52 slashers, 3 times faster then the avreage bow, the 58 crushers that are slightly faster then the avreadge bow but can do equal to, or even more damage then any bow assuming you got the right skills up a bit.

And the worst part is Melee users being able to use a High damage slow bow to make a quick first shot. Then turn on thier Melee attacking and DIRECTLY with no delay what so ever what with Melee... Not that I like to spill out his idea, but Zenga calculated that one of his chars will be as best able to first do 1000 dmg with a trishot (1600 vs player atleast) then followed up with a 700 melee attack... Doing 2300 damage in about 2 secconds.

No Archer can ever do that, if we try using Melee and then switch to archery there is a 5 seccond delay where I don't shoot. And I'm using a supwer fast bow and with bonus from quiver I shoot rhoughly every 2.7 seccond...

So what I want to say is, is it fair that a Melee user can have 50% (at the very least 50%) higher DPS then an Archer just becaus an Archer's damage "looks" higher?

And for those who wonder all Archers I've talked to do agree, and my calculations and estimations are based on several duels and a LOT of time played together with Duel Wielding friends...

if u comparing archers to melee compare the epics to, bow bonus doesnt change from 9-58 and its never very impressive on the bows bonus to crit hit ( the bonus would be great if crit hit always meant max dmg) the quiver which always gives conditional bonuses to ranged haste when a quiver 2 lvls higher and 100k cheaper will give u the same ranged haste always, and the arrows which either heal for 1 over x seconds or dmg 1 over x seconds, a lvl 60 mob wont feel an extra 5dmg from an arrow its hardly noticeable same for the heals

Precisly, while melee fighters gets all sort s of Stuns Daze and Mesmerizings, stop mob from having fun back...

The arrow bonus should be % of Max HP instead of just a few points, and bow needs to get an increasing bonus, becaus seriously 1% isn't much, especially at level 60.

As well as counting the skills, Melee fighters has 7 skills that improved chanse to crit, crit damage or adds chanse of extra attack (that one gives a huge bonuse when duel weilding)...

While Archers only get 5, and the trishot... best i can get is 6.5% of 3 shots, while Melee fighters can get three four times that without sweating it. Admitedly I like that I have two skills increasing chanse of doing a critical, but it's not enough, not comprared to Melee fighters getting higher crit damage from overcrit, and thier reddicusly up-speeded weapons.

So as i said, Archers needs to be improved to balance it all.

i completely agree, bow users need some sort of a boost in power.

i'm noticing that the lvl 20 skills i get for archery aren't beneficial enough to take on a competent melee fighter.

archers seem to have an advantage from lvl 1-19, but once lvl 20 comes melee fighters can become incredibly overpowered from the new skills compared to ranged new skills.

[Relic]

So what you guys want is for us Melee characters to be nerfed, into much weaker characters, after all our work to get where we are?
Or for archers to be much stronger.

and in reference to melee's being able to switch directly from a bow to melee weapons with no delay - (1) Most of us have all our Negatives in INT / CNC which makes us able to do about 10 damage with our bow, i only use it for the poison arrow. (2) If a melee did put alot of points into INT / CNC he would be drastically weakening his build, but neglecting melee/defense, either way it equals out. (3) Do none of you realize that evry class has a small advantage, Melee can Use a bow first shot with no delay, Archers can use a Bow (2 handed weapon) with a shield, at a small cost of attack speed, making them nearly invincible if they have a good blocking level. But you dont hear me complaining, or anyone else for the matter, about that.

Do you really think its fair, to suggest that all Melee characters be weaker?
Just because you cant " win " in duels doesnt mean anything, About the class.

I believe archers will be much better in end game, just because they arent right now, at level 60 - doesnt mean you can suggest us being nerfed.

-Relic

[zenga]

For PvP for me the best class choise right now is a melee fighter. That is because of the lvl 60 cap and the weapons around that level. Situation could be different when the cap is 70 or 80.

Now a question: did you build your char as a PvP char? If I'm a healing priest I shouldn't complain that I'm not good at 1 on 1 PvP ...

Originally Posted by Ath

And the worst part is Melee users being able to use a High damage slow bow to make a quick first shot. Then turn on thier Melee attacking and DIRECTLY with no delay what so ever what with Melee... Not that I like to spill out his idea, but Zenga calculated that one of his chars will be as best able to first do 1000 dmg with a trishot (1600 vs player atleast) then followed up with a 700 melee attack... Doing 2300 damage in about 2 secconds.

That was the theory. But it turns out differently. As a matter of fact the epic 58 bow / quiver / arrow combo does on that char (with only archery up to 58) no more than 20-30 damage which makes it not worth to even use it (besides from the extra stats & enchants the quiver and bow can give you). Maybe leveling up the other archery skills will increase that, but thats not a priority. The 700 melee attack (actually 1k) is theory again. It's possible but far from a guarantee (as trishot is no guarantee for you).

Besides, an archer can level up his melee stats -> open duel with trishot -> does melee damage -> switch back to bow which equals the above mentioned advantage.

Originally Posted by Ath

So what I want to say is, is it fair that a Melee user can have 50% (at the very least 50%) higher DPS then an Archer just becaus an Archer's damage "looks" higher?

An archer will have a high cnc & int, which makes them good with gems. While the melee fighter you refer to will hardly do any damage with gems at the level 60 (unless you take a class like a piercing rogue, but those will not do the same max damage as a slasher or crusher as it's a completely different build).

An archer can equip a shield (at a minimal cost) while a dual wielder can't.

An archer will do more average damage fighting mobs way above level than a dw'r can do.

Most of the epic armor I've found to be in favor of bow dudes/casters.

I really don't like the idea of fighting an archer with maxed dex, cnc, int and a good defense with maxed archery skills at level 60. The damage they could do is insane. So far I haven't seen any archer with those skills. The same goes for a direct damage caster.

Long story short:
- each class has its own + and -. Some are better in pvp than others. That doesn't mean the items/stats designed for a certain class should be changed imo.
- until there is an archer with maxed stats it's hard to compare who is the best in pvp
- lvl 60 is a moment in time. Situation can be totally different at 70 or 80.
- nodiatis is all about making choices anytime anywhere. and it starts with choosing a class.

On a final note: melee fighters are more steady in pvp, while an archer is more a roulette. But if he hits the right number an releases a few trishots ... that roulette will pwn the steady melee fighter. So far my humble opinion :P

heh i use a shield vs melee fighters and my blocking is high too bad archers cant block anything since they arent auto-attacking or parry anything since they still arent auto-attacking, so the bonus ends up being an extra 300 defense, this extra defense doesnt do much in pvp i find

personally my skills arent up at the point where i can compare to another melee fighter atm, but to say this only applies to pvp is foolish, even in pve i'm sure even the worst duel wielder kills mobs twice as fast as an archer.

i am willing to admit that its also foolish to compare at lvl 60 vs lvl 100, i can only say the trend atm is towards dual wielders.

personally as an archer i'd be happy with a change to epic bows and the completion and addition to our skill set. archers get no lvl 60 skill while melee gets 1, and out of all the skills not yet implemented (not including the lvl 60 skills) the archery skills are the only ones that are not there, depending on how blinding shot and kiting work, archers might actually be viable in pvp. right now it just feels like archers are forgotten and half finished with a lvl 1 and a lvl 40 skill not coming at all. the game has been out for 5 months i cant even imagine why a lvl 1 skill would not be there at all.

As Style says, using a shield dont help in PvP, in fact, the time I try using a shield I actually get my ass kicked twice as hard. So saying it's fair becaus we can use shield is basicly bull****.

Ans I'm not saying Melee fighters should be nerfed, I'm saying Archers should be tweaked.

I agree that using a shield vs mobs makes it possible to take down harder mobs, but it will take me rhoughly 3 times longer to kill an Oil Swamp mob alone then it takes for a Duel Wielding friend of mine.

And if Zenga says the theory doesn't work then I trust that and we can scratch out that comment, even tho I still belive there should be a delay.

All the gems that does good damage now would drain about 70% of my E or M, and since it's impossible to have a staff equipped at the same time as an archery item I can't reduce the cost that way, switching between staff and archery gear mid-fights gets yous tunned for 10 secconds.
So to be able to use the gems up here in a good way you have to put a LOT of points into PSt and MSt, which cripples out Int and Cnc and seriously lowers our damage with bows.

And what I wanted, all in all, with this post really is to get Kitting and Blinding shot finished as well as better epic boosts to our weapons.

[USAViper2127]

I guess I should put my opinion in here. I have a melee charicter and an archer. I do love my archer. It shows huge damage. The only problem with that is it is very delayed. I am a lvl 35 archer at the moment with magic at lvl 63. CNC is at 202 and INT is at 200. My max crit against a mob has been 256 so far. Sounds like alot. That is using a lvl 39 bow arrow and quiver with CE at lvl 35, SE at lvl 32, and SP at lvl 32. I have grouped with people helping them kill bosses. Many people at my lvl still are using Z-claws. They are able to crit over 200. I think the highest I saw was 210. They can do that 4 times. We have to bring vengeful shot up to high lvls to have a chance of 4 shots and have to have it perfectly timed for this and have to take damage to do this. All my regular archery stats ar lvl 35 and my bonus lvl 20 archery stats are nearly lvl 30. I have put alot of time into this character. Then seeing a melee fighter when they are duel weilding a lvl 25 weapon, 14 lvls lower then my equipment doing more damage then me and much faster makes it hard to play against. A think I love about warriors is they also have dur on there side. I am noticing how much dur actually helps a charicter. I am testing on it right now and only building dur. I have brought the charicter up to lvl 7 with a lvl 29 defence all going to dur. I have good fights against people 3 and 4 lvls higher then me. Archers can't build this stat without the penalties against us. I beleive if you brought dur over to archers to give us more health to start with it may even out a bit. It needs to be more health or faster cause the epics do drop a ton when you start hitting higher lvls. I had the advantage lvl 1-19 but after that I have stood no chance on helping a melee fighter.

Indeed. How can it be right that someone using weapons 11 levels lower then yours, and in this case also 1/3 lower, can do more damage then you?

Doesn't sound right to me.

I am Melee and Melee can kill Archers if done correctly. But look at Vengeful Shot Fire Arrow Poison arrow Tri Shot Ambush and Trained eye. 3 Level 20 skills for Melee 4 for Archer soooooooo why are you complaining??? And please dont be a retard and say there are 5 Melee lvl 20 skills everyone that has an IQ over 13 uses 1 of the 3 either Pierce Crush or Slash some use Whips or Staves or whatever no one cares about them :P.

Also i would like to point out that Range fighters are cowards and can't fight hand to hand so they hide far away !

And i wish i can be an archer and use a shield and Range people are alot better in PvE

There are 5 level 20 melee skills, out of which you ahve use of 3 since the 3 last is specialised to weapon type.

And anyone who bothers to read the skill befor saying Archerys gets more notices that you can't use both Posion arrow and Fire arrow, you can only use one of them.

And also all in all you have more skills then us, and more importantly all your level 1 skill actually excists and works.

And something I've noticed since i've started this post is that every Archer agrees, they alla agree that they don't stand a chanse agains Melee fighters.

And Melee fighters whines about me saying this here, you Melee fighters gets blinded by the high Number with make pop up on mobs, you don't see that we only attack 1/3 as often as you.

[Relic]

I can see that the point, for this post was totally lost, and no one is listening to what zenga or my self actually said, so nevermind.

I know what both you and Zenga mean Relic, I don't want Melee to change.

What I want is the things I'll list.

1. Kitting and Blinding Shot to be created and finished.
2. that Block atleast, preferable Parry should work when Auto Shooting.
3. Real Epic Bonuses to our epics, becaus what we have now to be honnest I don't care about a single one of the archery epic bonus. 1% extra crit, nothing really, 5 heals when you hit? C'mon! and increased speed when hit or decreesed opponent speed? when that quiver in questions bonus speed is so bad that the normal quiver 3 levels lower are better?
Real epic bonuses please.

I don't think this is unreasonable.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Ath

I know what both you and Zenga mean Relic, I don't want Melee to change.

What I want is the things I'll list.

1. Kitting and Blinding Shot to be created and finished.
2. that Block atleast, preferable Parry should work when Auto Shooting.
3. Real Epic Bonuses to our epics, becaus what we have now to be honnest I don't care about a single one of the archery epic bonus. 1% extra crit, nothing really, 5 heals when you hit? C'mon! and increased speed when hit or decreesed opponent speed? when that quiver in questions bonus speed is so bad that the normal quiver 3 levels lower are better?
Real epic bonuses please.

I don't think this is unreasonable.

Relic and Zenga are both correct imo. As for Usaviper..dude..aren't you forgetting our duel? The auras from your epics gave you the edge man

You know what Ath, just fking reroll, everyone else has or is doing it. I'm sure you'll get to 60 in no time with your resources.

Asking for the skills to be enabled/enhanced for Archers is just you being a pontificating level 60.

Personally, I think people who whinge about their classes are just looking for an excuse to cover up the fact that they didn't plan out their build or choose their class wisely.

Like, 'Cool!! I wanna be an archer cuz Robin Hood is my hero!!'

Sorry guys, I didn't want to think rationally and post something constructive for 'beautified' whinging.

[zenga]

Originally Posted by Jon

Like, 'Cool!! I wanna be an archer cuz Robin Hood is my hero!!'

i cracked here

Honestly I agree that all *coming soon* levels should be implemented asap. It should be top priority above any new gem, pk changes or whatsoever. That might make being an archer more beneficial.

On the other hand, the epic melee weapons don't have all awesome bonuses either.

What bothers me a bit is that many classes complain about something (remember whole daze discussion on this same board, or the no shield for casters, etc etc).

The game was designed with cons and pros for each class. If you are unhappy with your class either deal with it or re roll/level another dude.

On the other hand, the epic melee weapons don't have all awesome bonuses either.

So that stun bonus that resets my fire timer isn't nice? 25% chanse to cast? with 3 hits we're talking over 50% that it happens...

And you have to admit that the Arrow bonus is the worst epic bonus in game, and bow one not far after...

But that's a 3rd on the list, I can live with it especially if the skills get implemented.

[zenga]

I said don't have all , I didn't refer to one specifically.

[Gurnison]

First, can anybody honestly say they know the "best" build in this game? This game is very young and there are still too many unknowns. I'm sure all the early players who didn't re-roll have learned a huge amount since the start of the game and could build much better if they did it again. But we are still in the early learning curve. I might not be the most knowledgeable player in the game, but I've been playing regularly since day 2 of the release. I have one higher level char and a bunch of alts of various classes and build strategies.

The bottom line is that I have no freaking idea what the "best" class is. What is the "best" restaurant? It depends on if you like Italian food, Chinese food or Indian food. What is the "best" class for WHAT? The best for PvP? The best for mob? The fastest leveling? The best long term build? Do you fight in groups? Solo? How do you like to play?

The point is that there is no such thing as "best".

Everyone knows that archers have a fast start. How can anyone deny that's a big advantage? Fast early leveling, more gold, more trophies, more item drops. Let's assume that the higher level gear and skills for an archer aren't as good. Does getting up in level faster make up for that? Is it fair to compare 2 classes of the same level? Or is it better to compare 2 classes that have played for 500 or 1000 or 5000 hours each?