Bandaid Part II

[Huggles]

It's time to rip off the BM bandaid again, this time with the Helkok whip. When people complain about BMs, they're really complaining about kok BMs.

It is far superior to the other whips (or any other LG weapon, really) due to the massive bonus given by the whip (over 25% DPS bonus each for tier 1 whips). At tier 5, this becomes 44% per whip.

Of course, pet DPS is not 100% of a BM's DPS. However, it is a large enough portion that the massive increase from koks makes them used far beyond any other whip.

Currently active top arena BMs:

Deathwitch (2x Kok)
Demontamer (2x Kok)
Tsonis (2x Kok)
Ubeisea (2x Kok)
Muaddib (2x Kok)
Zodrack (2x Kok)
Lobstermobster (2x Kok)
Money (2x Kok)
Darklords (2x Kok)

This lack of variation means one of three things:
-Kok is overpowered
-Other whips are underpowered
-All these people are retarded for using Kok

Solutions:
Buff other whips to increase total DPS by over 10% per tier to match Kok
Buff all LG weapons to increase total DPS by over 10% per tier to match Kok
Nerf Kok pet damage bonus and buff other aspects to require more investment

Of course, not all weapons are meant to give DPS bonuses, but we can still compare those that do give DPS bonuses.

T1 Koks = +57% Pet DPS
Current T1 LoD = +6.8775% multiattack, +19% hit, which, very roughly, comes out to around 4.7% more melee and pet DPS from the +hit aspect and around 4.6%/7% for the melee/pet multiattack, which results in a 9.5% melee bonus and 12% pet bonus.

In order for this to be balanced with Kok, 1.095(Lod DPS)+1.12(Pet DPS) would have to exceed 1.0(Kok DPS)+1.57(Pet DPS). Solving for Pet DPS we get 2.43(LoD DPS)-2.2(Kok DPS) = Pet DPS.

2.43(2*Kok)-2.2(kok) = Pet DPS
2.66(kok) = Pet DPS
So if the DPS of pets before you apply LG weapon bonuses is equal to 2.66x the DPS of swinging your Koks around, it's balanced. We know damn well it's more than that.

Let's go to the most extreme example, Tier 8 Koks, and compare that to a T8 Tomahammer.

T8 Koks give a 129% Pet damage bonus.
Let's just assume that DW melee DPS and pet DPS are somewhat comparable. Is Tomahammer going to give 50% haste at Tier 8?
Tomahammer boosts all 3 members so let's compare 3v3.
3 dual Kok users = +129% to each
1 Theoretical Tomahammer = +30% to everyone, then the other weapons give 30% bonus each to each user (not that any such weapons exist), for a total of 120% bonus to the non-toma users, and a 69% bonus for the toma user, compared to 129% for all 3 of the kok users.

The only reasonable solution is nerfing the pet bonus on Koks and buffing it in other ways.

I think something along the lines of halving the max damage bonus while giving it a min damage bonus of the same amount would be a good start, as well as a small +hit bonus. Reducing the haste would probably be in order as well. Oh and buff the melee damage on the kok.

Of course, people with Koks may be displeased with such a change. I would therefore suggest allowing people to exchange their Koks for any other equal-tier LG whip after the changes are made. In addition, the most underused LG whips should be buffed:
Vampiric Dragon Whip
Angel Hair Whip
Boulderling Tendon Whip
Albino Rattler Whip

[ShadeDaScout]

support to all

-All these people are retarded for using Kok

[paulodjohn]

Give every other build a similar dps increasing weapon/staff/pet.

[Demons]

imo, if you wanna complain about it instead of nerf, buff something else. but those kok bm's you named are tiered bm's (money aside who losses 50% of his matches even with koks)...the only person top 15 that que's purely as a bm is deathwitch. and he actually tries to do well as a bm. melee toons and staff dots are all of top 13 rn aside deathwitch. and yeah I go bm occasionally but most my losses are cause of it <.< yes kok does have a good bonus. but if you look at any build usually theres only 1 or 2 weapon options...for bm it happens to be kok and lod. and I see no point in nerfing koks seeing as yes they may have a good bonus. but its clearly not good enough to make all of top 10 bm's...instead its 1 person. and that 1 person is right in league w/l wise with the melee people around him so \o/

also, no matter what whips or pets a bm decides to use there is a really super easy simple way to nerf there dps...yet so few people actually use the way to do it.

[Freakymagic]

PvP aside. There is a reason that nod has seen a HUGE influx of bms running around with t4+ koks, the dps buff in pve is massive for gold farming.

The fact that kok auto attacking dps is low af is also of no real negative. Bms can just auto shoot, the bow dps + fateseal proc more then makes up for loss of whip auto attack dmg. Yes you get the slow to auto shooting with whips equipped, but even with that you still get more dmg from kok + auto shooting then you ever get from running lods or any other whip auto attacking.

Gold is so laughably easy to make that koks should really get nerfed, But baring that please give other lgs for multiple build that teir as well as koks.

Yes a nerf to koks would piss people off to no end (i have multiple toons with teired koks myself) but in the long term it would be a huge improvement to nod imo.

[Darklords]

Yes please nerf kok's and while at it please give me a refund and remove them from my toon.

Thanks in advance.


Also i feel offended for being called a retard. makes me feel on same level as pale / joanna

[klawer]

And, yet, no BM was ever arena champion? If BMs are so good, then it should have been easy to outmatch all others
Now, about BM/archer builds, a few considerations, we don't gain Aerial Dominion, while any other weapon grants it to every archer out there. We also don't get intimidate. So it is a trade off, since KoK damage in and by itself is almost neglectable, but BM/archers is a combination of skills. The stats are spread thin, and that style does not have the normal survivability of a pure BM.
But, since things need to be balanced, then it is more than fair to REMOVE Aerial Dominion buff from any archer using any double casting gear. Aerial Dominion was created to give PURE archers a buff, because archers in the past either used shields + whips or shields only.
Nowadays any double casting archer will nuke you out with 10 attacks for 10k+ damage in the opener, while BMs have no burst damage at all, and we gotta hope they don't just obliterate us, in the first seconds.
Also, nerf any type of double casting out there. If people want BMs to be nerfed in their damage output,, no one should be able to attack so many times in a single turn, be it as a staff user, or as a dd dc, if you can attack more times in the same period then your opponent, that is a huge advantage. There is absolutely no fairness in being attacked 4,5,6,7,or 8 times, based on gear alone, and only being able to attack 2 times in the same period.
And, lets not forget the Carrot training and Growl " buffs ", that were slaps on the face of any type o BM in general.
But, guys, one thing, to give your allegations credibility, a BM would have to win arena... And, it doesn't seem like it is going to happen..
I DEMAND A NERF OF ALL OTHER WEAPONS AND SKILLS!

[ShadeDaScout]

what about blind which is more frequent than koks' stun and degen arrow instead of fleshies tho

[klawer]

Aerial Dominion should be shared with any and all bow users, same way Intimidate was. In the spirit of fairness, as it was when Growl was given to non whip users. Either that or remove that feature from any bow user equipped with weapons and/or shield.
Seems pretty fair... Like Growl...

[Freakymagic]

Originally Posted by klawer

And, yet, no BM was ever arena champion? If BMs are so good, then it should have been easy to outmatch all others

Last 4 seasons has been mostly prominent with koks.

Last solo que anon season had 2x bms ( 1 with tank suit)

Previous was 3v3 premade, top 3x teams all used a bm as dps (including the winning team)

Last 1v1 arena, 5x of the top 10 were bm ( with endy being in top 10 with bm class using dots)

previous 3v3 anon, Won by a bm, 1 other bm in top 10.

Bms are more then capable of doing well as shown by the last 4 seasons.

[Enduir]

Originally Posted by Freakymagic

Last 1v1 arena, 5x of the top 10 were bm ( with endy being in top 10 with bm class using dots)

I speshul.

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by klawer

And, yet, no BM was ever arena champion? If BMs are so good, then it should have been easy to outmatch all others
Now, about BM/archer builds, a few considerations, we don't gain Aerial Dominion, while any other weapon grants it to every archer out there. We also don't get intimidate. So it is a trade off, since KoK damage in and by itself is almost neglectable, but BM/archers is a combination of skills. The stats are spread thin, and that style does not have the normal survivability of a pure BM.
But, since things need to be balanced, then it is more than fair to REMOVE Aerial Dominion buff from any archer using any double casting gear. Aerial Dominion was created to give PURE archers a buff, because archers in the past either used shields + whips or shields only.
Nowadays any double casting archer will nuke you out with 10 attacks for 10k+ damage in the opener, while BMs have no burst damage at all, and we gotta hope they don't just obliterate us, in the first seconds.
Also, nerf any type of double casting out there. If people want BMs to be nerfed in their damage output,, no one should be able to attack so many times in a single turn, be it as a staff user, or as a dd dc, if you can attack more times in the same period then your opponent, that is a huge advantage. There is absolutely no fairness in being attacked 4,5,6,7,or 8 times, based on gear alone, and only being able to attack 2 times in the same period.
And, lets not forget the Carrot training and Growl " buffs ", that were slaps on the face of any type o BM in general.
But, guys, one thing, to give your allegations credibility, a BM would have to win arena... And, it doesn't seem like it is going to happen..
I DEMAND A NERF OF ALL OTHER WEAPONS AND SKILLS!

Speaking from the viewpoint of a BM who has won arena, do you even know how to read? lol

[klawer]

Originally Posted by Freakymagic

Last 4 seasons has been mostly prominent with koks.

Last solo que anon season had 2x bms ( 1 with tank suit)

Previous was 3v3 premade, top 3x teams all used a bm as dps (including the winning team)

Last 1v1 arena, 5x of the top 10 were bm ( with endy being in top 10 with bm class using dots)

previous 3v3 anon, Won by a bm, 1 other bm in top 10.

Bms are more then capable of doing well as shown by the last 4 seasons.

And, yet, last season we only had 1 true bm, and a bm using a samurai suit, with Enduir being a caster type? Fatty was a caster that doubled as a tank, and the other 7 were all melee users of some sort.
But, sure, what does the anon season got to do with anything right? Because in actuality, only ONE real bm player was there in the top 10, prime example of how KoK is op.
So lets compare what a t1 bm can do again say a t1 caster? Because right now, with prevents being nerfed, there is no real effective counter against casters, especially dotter, who are also double casters...
Lets go even further and compare a t1 bm against a t1 dd dc, for farming purposes? Because everyone wants a weapon that will give 50% dps bonus at t5 or so, right?
Well, than how come a t1 dd dc farms as fast as a fully upgraded t5 kok bm? So lets look at weapons like fang spear of conjuration, it gives +2% in both hit chance and double casting. per uptier; Those bonuses are useless, right? Because who needs to hit to do damage. Not like a bm with a kok won't miss, nor anything. And Opal quiver + either siren bow/thraki... Nowadays a double caster got to be lucky to get a single cast, intead of double;
There is no way you can fairly compare casting with kok bms, or any other type of dpsing toon, provided they are using anything less than t5 gear. And even then, I am willing to bet, the caster will bring home more gold.
If anything what is completely out of scale and needs a nerf is the double casting system.

[klawer]

Originally Posted by Ideaman

Speaking from the viewpoint of a BM who has won arena, do you even know how to read? lol

Speaking from the view point of a human being who thinks you must be pretty desperate to engage an argument, because you got no valid point and rather attack someone else to feel better about yourself?
Hmmmm, maybe...

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by klawer

Speaking from the view point of a human being who thinks you must be pretty desperate to engage an argument, because you got no valid point and rather attack someone else to feel better about yourself?
Hmmmm, maybe...

no valid viewpoint? I literally just countered your entire opening statement with the simple fact that, I as a BM have won arena. Continue? You shouldn't. You're not gonna win this fight bub. You did 0 research on what you're talking about and it shows.

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by klawer

And, yet, last season we only had 1 true bm, and a bm using a samurai suit, with Enduir being a caster type? Fatty was a caster that doubled as a tank, and the other 7 were all melee users of some sort.
But, sure, what does the anon season got to do with anything right? Because in actuality, only ONE real bm player was there in the top 10, prime example of how KoK is op.
So lets compare what a t1 bm can do again say a t1 caster? Because right now, with prevents being nerfed, there is no real effective counter against casters, especially dotter, who are also double casters...
Lets go even further and compare a t1 bm against a t1 dd dc, for farming purposes? Because everyone wants a weapon that will give 50% dps bonus at t5 or so, right?
Well, than how come a t1 dd dc farms as fast as a fully upgraded t5 kok bm? So lets look at weapons like fang spear of conjuration, it gives +2% in both hit chance and double casting. per uptier; Those bonuses are useless, right? Because who needs to hit to do damage. Not like a bm with a kok won't miss, nor anything. And Opal quiver + either siren bow/thraki... Nowadays a double caster got to be lucky to get a single cast, intead of double;
There is no way you can fairly compare casting with kok bms, or any other type of dpsing toon, provided they are using anything less than t5 gear. And even then, I am willing to bet, the caster will bring home more gold.
If anything what is completely out of scale and needs a nerf is the double casting system.

Also, before I rerolled there wasn't a single "caster" that beat me. Maybe you should learn how to counter?

[klawer]

Originally Posted by Ideaman

Also, before I rerolled there wasn't a single "caster" that beat me. Maybe you should learn how to counter?

Right, right, counter with the nerfed counter gems, right?
Maybe if casters could not cast 10 times in a row, while also using drain gems...

Casters need a huge nerf to begin with, but beg for other classes/weapons to be nerfed instead...

Again, tyring real hard to pick up a fight, are we?

[Freakymagic]

Originally Posted by klawer

And, yet, last season we only had 1 true bm, and a bm using a samurai suit, with Enduir being a caster type? Fatty was a caster that doubled as a tank, and the other 7 were all melee users of some sort.
But, sure, what does the anon season got to do with anything right? Because in actuality, only ONE real bm player was there in the top 10, prime example of how KoK is op.
So lets compare what a t1 bm can do again say a t1 caster? Because right now, with prevents being nerfed, there is no real effective counter against casters, especially dotter, who are also double casters...
Lets go even further and compare a t1 bm against a t1 dd dc, for farming purposes? Because everyone wants a weapon that will give 50% dps bonus at t5 or so, right?
Well, than how come a t1 dd dc farms as fast as a fully upgraded t5 kok bm? So lets look at weapons like fang spear of conjuration, it gives +2% in both hit chance and double casting. per uptier; Those bonuses are useless, right? Because who needs to hit to do damage. Not like a bm with a kok won't miss, nor anything. And Opal quiver + either siren bow/thraki... Nowadays a double caster got to be lucky to get a single cast, intead of double;
There is no way you can fairly compare casting with kok bms, or any other type of dpsing toon, provided they are using anything less than t5 gear. And even then, I am willing to bet, the caster will bring home more gold.
If anything what is completely out of scale and needs a nerf is the double casting system.

You really refuse to go look at hall of fame? last season had 3x bm class's. Norman (used tank suit or bm suit depending on the fight, dL bm all the time, and endy bm class using dots. As well brooke has had/used bm suit in the past ( idk if he ever did last season or not)

Furthermore glitch has stated in the forums previously he balances for 3v3 team arena, so other formats are not really necessary when looking at results. Which last 3v3 the top teams all used bms as their dps.

Yes castors are strong, and 1 of the best pve class's. Dbl doters are ass without teirs, dder are ass in pvp while good in pve. bms can be jsut as, if not stronger in both pve and pvp especially with koks, which teir better then ANY other lg BY FAR.

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by klawer

Right, right, counter with the nerfed counter gems, right?
Maybe if casters could not cast 10 times in a row, while also using drain gems...

Casters need a huge nerf to begin with, but beg for other classes/weapons to be nerfed instead...

Again, tyring real hard to pick up a fight, are we?

I didn't use a single prevent gem to never lose to casters. Again, learn how to counter. And no, you're just spouting a bunch of nonsensical ideas/thoughts out here that are 100% untrue. Just setting the record straight.

[klawer]

Originally Posted by Freakymagic

You really refuse to go look at hall of fame? last season had 3x bm class's. Norman (used tank suit or bm suit depending on the fight, dL bm all the time, and endy bm class using dots. As well brooke has had/used bm suit in the past ( idk if he ever did last season or not)

Furthermore glitch has stated in the forums previously he balances for 3v3 team arena, so other formats are not really necessary when looking at results. Which last 3v3 the top teams all used bms as their dps.

Yes castors are strong, and 1 of the best pve class's. Dbl doters are ass without teirs, dder are ass in pvp while good in pve. bms can be jsut as, if not stronger in both pve and pvp especially with koks, which teir better then ANY other lg BY FAR.

I did go look, and in that post I said last season, only one real bm was in the top 10. Yes, other seasons there was a variation, in the top 10, with more or less bms being top 10. And, yet only ONE real bm type was in the last top 10 season, and you STILL want kokos nerfed.
Keep in mind, that DL had t7/t8 koks, and again, you want koks nerfed, because you couldn't win?!?!
Nope, not when double casting dots can be left out there, being so completely OP in pvp.
Casters need a huge nerf. A staff dotter can switch to healing at will. And, of course, that is not unbalanced?!