Staff caster PVP balancing needed

[Skredperson]

dders can't have 4x tempers??

[Brick]

I disagree with you on so many points here, and before I even start I'd like to make it exceptionally clear that Blaze being an arrogant tit is not a reason for DDs to be buffed.

Anyway, casters in general for myself, and the opinions of what I'd hope are most rational people have the highest dps in game right now. They have such a low global cd per gem that it allows for them to spit out more damage than melee/archers can. This means that melee/archers suffer a lot more from regen. Our team setup last season which included a DoTer and a healer/DoTer were unable to match their dps when the bonus kicked in... and that was against a team that utilised regen. Against Nore who could stat up purely in favour of int/cnc, the damage was insane once you got well into the fight.

To pick apart some of your points, in your second paragraph you openly make the statement that you'd like DDs to match the offensive/defensive capabilities of melee/DoTs. Now, I openly agree that DoT users have the option to stat up very heavily in favour of regen, a lot opting for 400-500 which offers a pretty incredible defensive option, and their dps against a non-tank toon is pretty insane. Against a toon that's actually built up to tank in arena though, I still completely disagree with all the whiners that go on about how op and unstoppable they are. They can easily be held up long enough for decent dps to eat through DoTs. Melee users on the other hand have hopeless damage imo, even with quad it's incredibly hard to kill a regen toon in arena, I struggle to take well built toons down in the 5minutes allotted at times. I'm amazed you didn't bother to mention archers in this as AD gave them a huge boon, allowing for some insane hits. Staff users also get gravebound, which means they do in fact get a slight counter to regen, it's only slightly worse than melees version. At this point in the time, the only real class that counters regen are archers thanks to the new degen arrow.

I disagree with your point on PvE being negligible too, with epic DDs you'll outfarm everyone pretty convincingly. DoTs are the only comparable farming toon in higher zones as they have a chance to rupture.

Discourage jeweling/do untos and shield reflect are all options to counter magic users in general, I wouldn't agree with your assumption that they're 'uncounterable'... especially since you can't spam them out at the speed you need to to completely shut down a caster. In order to properly utilise them you also have to efficiently allocate stats to pre/mre and make use of correct runes. Essentially it's only an option for people who want to be dedicated tanks as it nullifies a lot of your potentially dps output. I stopped using this strategy for this season since it's not worth risking dps/taunting power over the chance you might bump into a caster. Int counters cnt stacking not cnc, and importantly again... the only people who have high cnt are tanks and possibly healers. Since DDs have the strongest AOE option, this is kind of a moot point since you'll also be hitting enemies with low cnt who are typically the dps. Once you kill the dps you just go single target and whittle down the tank. AOE DD users also drain more than everyone else due to their high damage on all members. With the regen meta we currently have you can also easily stack MRe and have a field day. Stunlock is a fair point, but I'd hardly say it's a good point here. It openly affects everyone in the game, going up against 3 BMs is infuriating for everyone.

I'd also like to get you to look at who won last arena season. As a team they were consistently beating everyone but Adino, who was a team made up of duo-archers and a DDer. Just my opinions on the matter, may have ended up a little convoluted, but as a tl;dr, DDs are not underpowered and a lot of your points aren't particularly valid and just feel like poor additions to try and formulate an argument for buffs. This arena season is not a clear indicator on what is actually strong, it just shows which classes can solo teams the best. Try arena out next season (if it switches back that is) and then come back and make a complaint if you still believe DDs are pathetic.

[banndintheusa]

Originally Posted by Brick

Anyway, casters in general for myself, and the opinions of what I'd hope are most rational people have the highest dps in game right now.

Wrong double cast archer DD SMOKES staff dps, ask MA or daniel. Plus they get shaft and 4 other peices of equipment to temper.

Also, who kills u in arena Brikk? ghosttamer or a DD caster lol.

The caster can ONLY kill you you if he/she has a taunting tank, and 2-3 mins have gone by so that the dmg bonus has overcome your cnt skill.

5 tc's to the first staff DD to beat brikk one on one.

LOL

[Brick]

Originally Posted by banndintheusa

Wroing double cast archer DD SMOKES staff dps, ask MA or daniel. Plus they get shaft and 4 other pices of equipment to temper.

No idea what you said and you clearly ignored every one of my points, just reading the first line. If you're going to complain about buffs and bring up points for why something should be buffed, at least try and defend said points. I didn't claim to kill anyone either(?) I was mostly talking about last seasons arena since it allowed for actual tactics. Don't be a mong saying that because your build isn't golden this arena season which is ALL about random comps and those who can solo teams, that it sucks and deserves a buff.

On another note, writing LOL in caps and being an arse to me doesn't make your argument correct. I personally feel if any class still needs a buff it's melee. It's a decent class this season as Brooke has shown, but in the proper setup I don't see duo-melee+tank doing well anytime soon. Learn to take some criticism and actually respond to people who make useful points or don't bother responding.

[Thesin]

If DD is apparently so **** compared to all the other alternatives why are you still rolling with one?
You're an intelligent person, no doubt- so why the hesitation to switch?
And don't say it's for the "good of DD casters". I think we both know why you're doing this.
Mayhap you want DD casters to become the be-all and end-all of Nodiatis-
capitalize your investment as a caster when you saw an opportunity to do so?

[>.>]

holy chit someone is butthurt that he didn't beat blaze.

[Blaze]

:{

[banndintheusa]

Originally Posted by Brick

No idea what you said and you clearly ignored every one of my points, just reading the first line.

Sorry hit save by accident and getting pissed off people are openly mocking my BUILD IN GAME and coming here disagreeing simple for the fact thier own toon recieves no benefit.. but thats nod. Heres some rationality for you:

They have such a low global cd per gem that it allows for them to spit out more damage than melee/archers can.

I disagree with your point on PvE being negligible too, with epic DDs you'll outfarm everyone pretty convincingly.

This thread about PVP as originally stated..why PVE has anything to do with staff DD getting ass kicked in arena i dont know, but ok here you go...

on mobs <90 yes every time DD caster is faster than melee, high level not at all. Resist resist resis, even 1300+ cnc. And even still farm rate not near as fast as a double cast archer. They get all the benefits of same epic dd's. 75%+ double cast, plus chance to hit with fang spear, and shaft of death finisher, aand bow dps lol.
.... and again can temper 3 items i can't even equip which have mre on them to counter for efficiency loss of no staff.

On every level DD staffer is missing out, even when it comes to casting DD gems.

Wheres the 75% to double cast staff?
20% to hit staff?
How do i make up for 3 missing 8x tempers and the stone regen?

you cant.

To pick apart some of your points, in your second paragraph you openly make the statement that you'd like DDs to match the offensive/defensive capabilities of melee/DoTs.

yep, I'd like to able to heal for 600+, damage for 1200+, heal my team and daze opponents on every single cast...if that isnt the definition OP brikk..what is?

If it's ok for dotters, why not DD?

Wheres bloodraw for DD?

It would take me 4 gem draws to *maybe* do what a dotter does every single gem that gets casted. Which is why alastrina is unbeatable to staff DD.

At this point in the time, the only real class that counters regen are archers thanks to the new degen arrow.

exactly, which staff DD cannot USE. Nothing stopping you or any other toon from equipping a degen arro, or swithcing to it mid combat.

but for me not an option, no bow, no arrow, no quiver and 15 second stun to switch setups.

Discourage jeweling/do untos and shield reflect are all options to counter magic users in general, I wouldn't agree with your assumption that they're 'uncounterable'...

Yeah the only way is by not casting gems...which a staff DDer then switches too what?? Staff damage? Nothing?

If discourage pouch didnt work, why would i complain? Nothing stopping you from leveling deft recovery, nearly matching drawrate. A discourage pouch completely shuts down my DPS, as in ZERO. i have 380 mre. its not my toon. Its the fact that while im fighting to cast a single gem wasting the mana on every cast he's hitting me for 2k dmg and stunning.

Unbeatable.

Only way is apoc, which is temporary and costs half your mana.

Id be ok with it if glitch introduced discourage melee gems to counter. Id run em all day long.

I'd also like to get you to look at who won last arena season. As a team they were consistently beating everyone but Adino, who was a team made up of duo-archers and a DDer

Exactly, staff DD can win

...with the appropriate teamates....

solo they are extremely weak which is why blaze is handing out tc's to the first dder to beat him and why ill never have to pay 5tc's for a a staff DD toon to beat you.

Its not possible.

[banndintheusa]

Originally Posted by King

This thread is tl;dr but dots rule PvP.dd rules pve if you want to balance dds PvP balance dots pve. And I offer a tc as a challenge.there are dders that can beat me.alastrina is a top dotter. Ofc the average deer can't beat her and among the list of people who have tried is 0 top staff dders

Alastrina is not top dotter at all, mid tier.


But thank for highlighting a serious deficincy in the game.Staff DD is sorely weak in PVP combat, so much so that you are willing to offer a TC to anyone who can beat you.. that's your current level of confidence.

Says it all.

Your the one who discovered we are so weak..thanks alot blaze.

[Blaze]

:{

[banndintheusa]

Originally Posted by Thesin

If DD is apparently so **** compared to all the other alternatives why are you still rolling with one?
You're an intelligent person, no doubt- so why the hesitation to switch?
And don't say it's for the "good of DD casters". I think we both know why you're doing this.
Mayhap you want DD casters to become the be-all and end-all of Nodiatis-
capitalize your investment as a caster when you saw an opportunity to do so?

Exactly thesin, the only option is a reroll after spending 100m on a gem pouch.

bummer

Tell u waht when glitch takes away your bow, quiver and arrow in the arena then we can call it square.

[Blaze]

:{

[>.>]

There seems to be misconceptions in this thread and i am going to clarify them.

Casters miss out on 4 tempers
No, they only miss out on 3. Double bond exists to allow all 2h users to get 2 tempers worth of hp from a single weapon. This allows for a 2h user with 8x tempers and 100 DB to have the same hp as a dual wield user with 8x tempers. Unless you know of any 2h user that can equip a shield then your point there is moot.

You have to spec for dps and in turn require a tank to take the damage
Huh a pure dps character has to have a tank or else they will get destroyed. You can build a tanky caster as it has been done before. You are pretty much saying that you refuse to change your glass cannon build and that the game should change to make you last longer. You have a place in pvp and that is hiding behind a tank. If you spec'd yourself for more of a defensive build at the cost of some dps then you would not need a tank as much. A tank would always help though because a class specifically built to withstand damage can actually.....withstand damage.

No anti regen gear
Reaper and gravebound. Guess what dotters can't use the degen arrow either and a pure melee toon would do roughly 50 damage if they auto shoot and mess with their melee delay upon switching back from the shot.

No anti cleanse gear
If only there were some gems that the cleansing quiver was modeled after. A cleansing gem perhaps. You should suggest that to glitch. And also suggest that they are applied before the damage bonuses and affect the base dot. Wait that would be too op.

They can see who we attack
Because the tower of numbers isn't a clear enough indicator that, "hey they aren't attacking the tank anymore I should taunt." I can tell when a dotter is attacking me from the stack of textual notification saying disease, poison and burn. I can tell when a melee toon is attacking me because of the damage/stuns/procs I incur.

Anti caster gems
At least you did make note of the fact that they affect ALL clicked gems not just DD. It is possible to drain a person that is using these. Since none of the gems have a 100% chance to stop it can take between 1 and 6 gems to stop 1 of your gems. I have had a whole row top ranked (4 top and 2 of the next rank down) disappear and have the gem still hit me. And there is no stopping the exhaustion gems since they hit through impervious.

One shotting yourself with high damage bonus
You mean like archers vs a tank or any toon vs a daze? There are counters in place for self damage, mitigation and the self hit skills, and since you seem to be gearing towards DD's can even last that long I don't see how this is an issue. Never the less as stated above those gems are not 100% and the do unto gems also require the user to take the damage in order to mirror it back.

Being drained
Considering most if not all casters now utilize mre/pre getting drained is actually quite a feat for a caster. You can hold 1 and can cast forever. Impervious is shatterable for all classes and getting drained is especially taxing on a tank since no taunts normally equals a team death.

Stunlocking
You mean like all classes?

Bloodraw/vamp rune
DD has a bloodraw rune and it is called .....vamp. Vamp affects all attacks and since dots are not considered attacks they have their own counterpart.



I like how you end your whiney post by essentially trying to bribe glitch by saying if he "fixes" DD that you will throw money at him.

[Brick]

In fairness to you, you actually took the time to read what I put and reply fairly. I'm still not convinced though. Mostly what you seemed to do was take part of my points and ignore my reasoning for why it's not as broken as you stated and instead re-wrote your own beliefs.

I talked about PvE because you mentioned it as being a weak benefit of going DD when in fact it's clearly a very prominent reason to do so, why do you think so many people are going double cast archer?

Bloodraw is a weaker version of vamp rune.

No idea what you meant by the huge bonuses that you don't get... just use ebonbone like everyone else.

'15 second stun to switch setups'. Just start off in a bowsuit and switch to DD if you need to, then there's no stun. Moot point.

Degen arrow point is true, we can switch to it freely. It's only a real perk for archers though imo, you lose all dps if you stop AA'ing mid fight as a melee toon.

Apoc is OP. Horrible in this setup but extremely strong in 3v3 arena.

No-one would be okay if glitch introduced discourage gems that counter melee, it's just silly.

You're still completely off with your views on discourage gems, please read what I originally put. They only work if the individual you're targeting is using them, meaning that they need to taunt as well as attempting to spam them. Since most toons needs to utilise auras, it's impossible to have a quick enough draw speed to actually use them effectively, not to mention the fact that you need to have pre/mre and proper runes (again, no comprende with this arenaro). I only found that discourage gems work if you don't need to completely rely on auras and taunts, i.e. you're fighting a duel (1v1) or you're playing in last seasons arena, where you could effectively setup a team with a healer. This actually allows you to use the gems quickly enough to negate some damage.

Do untos always fail from what I've seen, the exact mechanic I'm not too sure on, but I'm pretty sure it's based off the tanks cnc.

If you cba to read my post, just read what Rogue said. He pretty much nailed it.

[banndintheusa]

Casters miss out on 4 tempers
No, they only miss out on 3.

Sure, my bad. BUt if you go dual one handers its 4. ill concede all other classes get 3 items with stat bonuses, armor, stones and tempers that a staffer can't use, ever.

My point exactly...3 or 4 doesn't matter, huge disadvantage.


Archers get all the double bond bonus of fangspear, + dbl cast % from bows.

-it's unbalanced.


A pure DD caster is actually weaker at doing its designed purpose: (casting dd gems), than an archer is.

No anti regen gear
Reaper and gravebound.

All toons get these, so why cant all toons use degen arrow. A Staffer can't.... Why not extend gravebound to aoe gem casts, thats what archers get with multishot, and a much larger degen bonus, with gravebound, AND reaper stacked lol.

They can see who we attack...as if the stack of numbers doesnt give it away

Show of hands who doesnt click on the easy to kill aoe caster as soon as the aoe gem fires. LOL, in fact show of hands who doesnt first attck a toon with caster auras showing...

Its a guaranteed easy toon to kill, and should be done so right away. Which is why blaze is handing out free tc's... he knows hell never have to.

Your only way to survive is with a solid taunting tank on your team.

Being drained
Considering most if not all casters now utilize mre/pre getting drained is actually quite a feat for a caster. You can hold 1 and can cast forever. Impervious is shatterable for all classes and getting drained is especially taxing on a tank since no taunts normally equals a team death.

Dude just shatter his imperv, or use devamp aura, its game over even with 350+ mre. You have about 8 shots with epic pouch/skills maxed. Not even close to enough to kill a toon with 20K hps..

Bloodraw/vamp rune
DD has a bloodraw rune and it is called .....vamp. Vamp affects all attacks and since dots are not considered attacks they have their own counterpart.

which dotter's also equip, as well as melee classes get 15% through fangs. My highest level aoe red gem heals roughly 150 with epic leech, add stalkers around 350

-as long as i'm not stunned and there was no resist-

Bloodraw is 600+ per cast everytime.

[Blaze]

:{

[banndintheusa]

Originally Posted by Brick

In fairness to you, you actually took the time to read what I put and reply fairly. I'm still not convinced though. Mostly what you seemed to do was take part of my points and ignore my reasoning for why it's not as broken as you stated and instead re-wrote your own beliefs.

not at all, brikk....here is my perspective exactly... i wont argue about discourage gems, in fact ill agree with you..hows that sound.

These serious disadvantages all remain:

How do i make up for 3 missing tempers and 3 stones?
To put it in perspective, why doesnt glitch make it so all classes have to choose to equip a weapon or a bow in arena, and remove bonuses for the unequipped items. Thats what staffers have to do. Why no 15 second penalty for switching? It's Huge.

Degen arrow?
There isnt one. Reaper and gravebound every class gets, plus arrow. Dotters damage enough to overcome the disadvantage. DD doesnt because cnt affect DD damage.

How do i reduce Dot damage?
No cleansing quiver. Only option is cure gems, which means im a healer, not dd anymore.

How do i reduce getting targeted at the opening of arena rounds
I can't. Why would it be so OP to hide the gem casting animation in arena? How would that harm anyone else's toon in anyway? Why doesnt dotter have animation? Its unfair on all sides.

How can i leech/heal as much as dotter
They can literally regen 15k hps in less than 3 seconds under the right scenario. Ive seen GT hit 18k insta heals. ...while hitting for just as much....

Why do ALL CLASSES get a finishing and/or opening skill except DD?
Why would this be too op? Every single other toon already has it.


Blaze is now handing out TC's to any staff DD'er who can beat a mid tier dotter.

Doesn't get any more clear cut than that.

I didnt start this, he highlighted a serious imbalance in the game.

If it happens, it will be because he lets hit happen as he's scared he just started a nerf on dots and buff DD's scenario


...which he did...

facepalm blaze... but thank you.

[banndintheusa]

Originally Posted by King

Bloodraw heals alastrina for like 100. I don't even bother wasting a runeslot on such a crappy heal

Because you're only a mid tier dotter, gt heals 600+ per cast

put on angelic aura, now you are healing 20% more...taking 20% less dmage, doing the same amount of DPS.... DD takes a 20% dps hit with that gem.


Im a dder and i know how to play your toon better lol

You really are a mid tier dotter.

[banndintheusa]

Originally Posted by Skredperson

dders can't have 4x tempers??

Nope every other toon gets to equip 3 more items than a staffer does, all of which get tempers. So my bad, 3x tempers. Corrected my original post thank you.

[banndintheusa]

Originally Posted by King

Alastrina has beat HK a couple times as well as excellence and masterarcher. If these people she has managed to beat doesn't make her a top dotter are they all midtier as well?

So what you are saying iS MA, the best Double caster archer in the game can't beat you...never mind staff LOL

Keep proving my point...staff DD needs Serious PVP buff.